Talk:Energy
This page would be TONS easier to use if the energy was alphabetical. Earlier on it may have been feasible to have them in order of encounter, but now there are so many that alphabetical is the only order that makes sense. As it is currently it takes forever to search out the energy you're looking for. Brossow 18:13, June 3, 2011 (UTC) : Or maybe it needs to divided by Chapter. -Xick (talk) 23:35, June 3, 2011 (UTC) :: By chapter makes little sense, especially with the new chapters reusing energy types that were previously limited to a single chapter. Brossow 00:12, June 4, 2011 (UTC) ::: Maybe they should be divided in some sub-categories, there's a lot of them now and I'm not sure how easy is it to, for example, have to look at all Vrilya energies (all 9 of them!) at different places. I know that some energies are used more than once, but a more systematic approach might be better. Silver123 09:10, June 4, 2011 (UTC) :::: I agree that subcategories are needed. I think that the energies that are reused are a small subset and by Chap seems to be the best way to have divisions that match with the logic of the game. I've started by moving Basic and Superiour Engeries to the top of the list. I agree with Silver123 that at the least the Viril Engeries should have their own section. I further think that they should be listed in order of the numbers on the cards and not Alphabetically. -Xick (talk) 01:13, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::: You guys do what you want, but I specifically came to this page to look for various energies related to Chapter 11 and it was a mess, completely unintuitive to find what I needed. Too many people forget that wikis are reference sites and that reference materials (dictionaries, encyclopedias, thesauruses, etc.) are almost exclusively in alphabetical order. In this case, being categorized or grouped would have (and did) hinder me in finding what I wanted because I didn't know -- or care -- what chapter the energies came from originally because all that mattered to me was finding them again for Ch. 11. Brossow 04:25, June 5, 2011 (UTC) :::::: I didn't say it shouldn't be in alphabetical order at all, but it might be easier to find things that are at least partially sorted. OK, maybe chapter sorting might be a bit too much for someone searching for old energy locations. How about sorting all 9 Vrilya energies in one place (under "V"), and then another category for basic, superior, enchanced and enchanted energy (because they don't attract any specific characters)? I'm not sure about the others. Maybe just leave them the way they are if there's isn't a easy and intuitive way to categorize them. Silver123 06:40, June 5, 2011 (UTC) ::::::: Categories are only helpful when the person seeking information knows what category something belongs in. In my case, I didn't (don't) know or care what category a particular energy is in -- it has absolutely no bearing on anything for me. I just want to look up an energy by name, find the info (usually where / from what it is acquired) quickly, and get back to playing. I'm not happy about the changes to move Basic and Superior out of order, but I can live with it. However, I'm really not pleased about the reorganization of the Vrilya energies. I know why you did it, and visually it may be more appealing for someone who is already an expert in the game, but it completely goes against the usefulness of the page as a reference for someone who knows nothing about the energies -- in other words, the person who should be your target audience. By placing those energies together, you make the inappropriate assumption that a person searching for Icewing Energy (for example) already knows that it's a Vrilya energy. We shouldn't be making that assumption. Brossow 13:31, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :::::::: Shouldn't somebody who's searching for Icewing energy be in chapter 9? By the time they get to the collecting Icewing energy quest, they should know Crevasse Icewing is a character in Vril. Why would someone in chapter 1 look for Icewing energy? None of the Vrilya Energies are used anywhere outside Vril, and Vril is introduced in the game before Salt Mines or Salt Flats, which means somebody who gets Icewing Energy as a loot (or knows about it) must have been to Vril already. Also, my thoughts was that, since there aren't many cutscenes in ch9, which makes things complicated for users, putting them that way would make it easier for them to have a sort of a reference guide when searching for different characters.--Silver123 16:57, June 6, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::: As a person who has at times made a living writing reference materials, I'm saying that we shouldn't be writing with any assumptions in mind as to what players do or do not know. From my own experience, I'm telling you that when I came to this page I fully expected it to be in alphabetical order and was surprised and disappointed when it was not. If someone comes to this page, it should be the most intuitive thing in the world to look for Icewing alphabetically (the way the rest of the page is rightly arranged) rather than scrolling all the way down to the V section to find it, and even then not finding it in the proper alphabetical order. In short, when you write reference materials (like this) you aim at the lowest common denominator and you assume that the reader knows nothing. ::::::::: ::::::::: As for why someone in Ch. 1 (or Ch. 8) might be looking for Icewing Energy ... one example could be that s/he saw it mentioned in passing the forums and came here to find out what it is. Without knowing anything more than the name of the energy, the reader has a difficult task in tracking it down on the current page as compared with finding it when the energies are (were) listed alphabetically. And that's just one valid ferinstance. Brossow 17:06, June 6, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::: They are now back in alphabetical order, except for enhanced and enchanted energy. If Basic and Superior weren't listed alphabetically, then those two have no real reason to be, either, since they have very similar functions. So, it should be either left this way or all energies (including basic and superior) should be listed alphabetically. --Silver123 18:54, June 6, 2011 (UTC) ::::::::::: Thanks. I moved the others back into alphabetical order as well. (After a couple overly hasty edits, that is -- I didn't see that you had re-alphabetized the Vril energies.) Brossow 19:01, June 6, 2011 (UTC) We shouldn't have to be limited by not being allowed to make assumptions as to who is going to read these articles and why they are going to do so. Writing to a hypothetical completely ignorant reader doesn't make any sense. This isn't a physical publication but an electronic one. Using the previous example, if someone is looking for Icewing Energy they can use the search box to find it, wherever it may be on this page. Having the Viril energies in alphabetical order doesn't make any sense, they are a subset and deserve to be ordered as so. Using the numerical order from the artwork is just as logical as alphabetical. Placing the most searched for terms at the top of the list is more useful. If you want to assume that beginners are using the wiki doesn't having the two forms of energy that they can use at the top of the list make more sense? This list is currently 30 items long and is growing around 4 energies per chapter/event. It requires some form of organization that can cope with frequent additions, and while alphabetical might be one of the easier (Order of addition to the game was the easiest to maintain. As Brossow has already pointed out in the change log, it's very easy for the div tags to be screwed up) it seems arbitrary and old fashioned in a indexed and searchable publication -Xick (talk) 22:53, June 6, 2011 (UTC) : Hey, I'm offering what most people who know me and have paid me well for in the past would consider expert advice. I have broad and deep experience in both printed and online publication, from professional web design to technical writing to federal grant writing to wiki creation and management (and not this amateur Wikia stuff, either) and more. You remember a game called MythMonger? I started that wiki on my own server from scratch before turning it over to the devs (just to provide an example you may consider relevant). Some of the MouseHunt wiki stuff you've borrowed for this wiki? That's my creation as well (e.g. the spoiler alert on the main page). In short, I know what I'm talking about and am trying to help. : I agree with you wholeheartedly in one respect: "It requires some form of organization that can cope with frequent additions." No form of organization is more basic, more intuitive, or easier for anyone to read and edit reliably than alphabetical order. Whether it's a printed or an electronic publication, whether or not a search function is available, both research and real-world experience show unequivocally that this is the order people are used to, anticipate, and expect when seeking information in list format such as this. : If you want to ignore what experts and experience will tell you is best for the majority of users and rearrange it into an order that makes you happy instead, go right ahead. But be aware that in doing so you'll be going against the very purpose of a wiki and instead turning it into a personal vanity site where things are dictated by what you want rather than what's best for the user. That's not me saying so; that's decades (perhaps centuries) of research. FWIW, YMMV, TTFN, etc. Brossow 23:30, June 6, 2011 (UTC) ::The experts I know and my experience agree that the best way to categorize information isn't alphabetically by title but by subject. Silver123 and myself have been trying to point out that the alphabetization of the information on this page caused the previous groupings of energies to be lost. I agree that this page wasn't clear and that more headings were required but the alphabetization that made it easier to manually find information removed other kinds of information. If this wiki is going to be relevant then it must contain more information than what can be found in the game itself. ::As for your assertion that this is a vanity project, I completely agree. This is a wiki for a game that is steadily losing active players and if it wasn't for a core group of obsessives, including myself, who make the decisions and edits it wouldn't exist. I think it's only fair that in return for doing all the work, we organize the wiki in the best sense that suits ourselves. -Xick (talk) 04:24, June 7, 2011 (UTC) :::That's a staggeringly shitty attitude that certainly won't help with the loss of players. I know one editor you just lost. See ya. Brossow 05:11, June 7, 2011 (UTC) I think my last edit is a compromise between the two philosophies. By having more information on the page I think we manage to have a readable list and maintain the information that the previous version of the page had. I also think that it corrects for previously stated problem of multiple chapters using the same energies as we can add the multiple links in the chapter list. Please add the chapter 10 and 11 data to the list. -Xick (talk) 08:38, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Maybe change the chapter lists to more of a image gallery like Locations as all the cards have their names included in the art work? -Xick (talk) 09:02, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *I like the overview table, it's a nice summary if you want a quick reference. Putting in pictures might be a bit too much for the page load, I'm not sure about that, even though it sounds nice. There has to be some way to make the page a bit shorter, maybe by using collapsible tables so you can hide/show parts of page.--Silver123 11:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) chapter energies I was thinking, maybe it would be better to put chapter energies in a simple table instead of a list. Any thoughts? Maybe it could even include pictures, as suggested above. Silver123 13:31, June 22, 2011 (UTC) P.S. I was thinking about something like THIS..